Exact Approximations

Friday, June 16, 2006

Lex's Diatribe on Atheism

I am an Atheist. I do not believe in a conscious anything that somehow exerts power over the entire universe. I know many people believe there is a collective energy that we disperse into upon death - but I see that as the equivalent of dying, being buried in the earth, fertilizing the ground and growing into grass.

For me, when I say I am an Atheist, it means I do not believe one retains a sense of self - consciousness, memories and thought, after the body physically dies. I was asked why I believe there is no memory of self upon death. My answer is that, having studied psychology, I know that consciousness and sense of self are completely tied to brain activity and neural networks. This is most evident when you look at the effects of brain injury. Brain injury can fundamentally change how one thinks. Brain injuries have been documented to lead to amnesia, a loss of the ability to form new memories (short and long-term), and there are even cases where injuries to portions of the brain completely change a person's personality or blunt their emotional affect. Biological research is what leads me to believe that when a person experiences brain death, the "self" also dies. It makes no logical sense to me that something completely dependent on neural networks (the self or consciousness) could survive complete brain inactivity (brain death).

Why does this matter? Well, vanity mostly. I think the human desire to believe in something "greater" or "bigger" than this life is linked to a human vanity. A wish to be part of everything forever. An egotistical need to somehow feel that one is part of everything, rather than a small piece to something larger than any one thing. Without a continuity of consciousness after death, the "afterlife" loses meaning to me. If one were to "disperse" into a greater energy upon death, but not know it - to me that is equal to, as I call it, "having your T.V. turned off." If you don't take the experience of life with you when you die, then it's not really an afterlife in my book. It's fertilizer.

My post about being in the hospital and asking God to show himself to me is a direct manifestation of my ego, vanity and recognition of just how awesome it is to be a human. I would love for it to never end. It's a miraculous thing, this consciousness that humans have developed, and it would be nice to have it forever. But, really, that probably wouldn't be a good thing for an evolving universe. If things didn't die, evolve and thereby transform - we would be 21st century humans having to deal with retarded cavemen. And I've seen the Geico commercial, dealing with cavemen is no fun.

In response to CECU's insinuation, I don't think it's logically sound to say that atheism is a placeholder until a person begins to ask themselves the questions of what life is, what it means and why we exist. I am disappointed that CECU even suggested such a thing, as I believe the comment displays the type of simplicity and historically stereotypical notions of spirituality that CECU so often warns against. Atheists can and do ask themselves these questions and toss about answers, answers that can simultaneously conform with their Atheism.

For an Atheist, this life is all you have. There is no belated forgiveness. Wrongs that must be righted must be righted during this life. An intense sense of personal responsibility is central to the Atheist's morality. Any journey to reach "good" must be obtained in this life. There is no back-up option, no requesting forgiveness at the last moment. There is no opt-out provision that allows an Atheist to disconcern him/herself with the world. For an Atheist, life is Heaven, and we have to treat it as such. And that's ok. While one person can never reach the pinnacle of "perfection" by him/herself, one can get closer, and bring others closer, and take away the knowledge that they have begun rolling a ball of good that will catch others upon its journey.

The miracle of life is the amazing experience of self-consciousness. To think, reflect, remember - that's fucking amazing to me. Now, it's only for a limited time, but lets just step back, look at the big picture, and be glad we're not a worm. Being a conscious being, I believe, is a random occurrence. A random occurrence that must also be occurring in other places in this universe. But it is random and it is brief. That is what makes it so special, the uniqueness of an isolated period of time where one can reflect, think, plan, etc.

What I don't understand is why people always ask Atheists - "What is the meaning of life then?" Or, as CECU assumed, that not believing in an afterlife is equivalent to not searching for or finding meaning in life. I don't understand the notion that for life to be meaningful, it must be eternal. The things in life that are most meaningful come to an end: that first kiss, raising your children, a sunset beautiful enough to make you cry, a comet, an orgasm, a butterfly... life is full of amazing, meaningful things that have marked beginnings and endings. If anything, the short nature of being Alive breeds the opportunity for making your life more meaningful. It becomes that much more precious. Intensity of time limitation can lead to a fantastic desire to take nothing for granted and to seek meaning in everything.

We are conscious, able to self-reflect, for a limited, brief period of time. This is meaningful. It gives us the power to influence those life-forms that have not evolved to this level yet as well as others that have. Self-consciousness permits the opportunity for a great deal of meaning. My question for those who do desire to be a part of everything forever is why? I have explained my own motivations, and they boil down to rather superficial reasons.

But I really, really want to understand why those who believe do believe. Why is it fundamentally "better" to exist forever. Is that what is best for the universe? Is that what is best for the future? Is there an element of selfishness to the desire to exist eternally? Why is it less meaningful or spiritual to be a small part of something larger than any one thing can ever be?

I have what I call a "what others take with them" approach to the meaning of my life. The people I see, meet, interact with - even the child I have made, all of these people are influenced by their interactions with me. We have moments of shared self-awareness. The better person I am, the closer I get to being "good" - the more likely it is that others will pick up on that and do the same. If Daughter becomes a loving, sympathetic, encouraging, (hopefully liberal) person, that will continue, even after I no longer have self-awareness (because I am dead). Daughter, in turn, will take that with her, and influence others. The purpose of life is to facilitate good. To contribute to the evolution. To seek the things you love and to love seeking things that are good.

Admittedly, my spiritual beliefs are ever evolving. I constantly evaluate what the purpose of life is, what I can do to be better at living it, how I can become more ALIVE. I hope that in 10, 20, 30 years... I have developed a deeper understanding of the meaning of the brevity of consciousness, and the ways it can be used to help evolution. I want to become a better person, all the time, for the rest of my life. And pass that on as much as I can.

20 Comments:

  • Amen sister.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:58 AM  

  • Oooh, this was really good and interesting to read.

    Brooklyn says "Hi and I'm sorry I didn't comment back after you did." She's a coward and can't come do that herself. She's laying her head on my shoulder right now and telling me to stop.

    I'm done.

    By Blogger Arbusto, at 2:35 PM  

  • Hi Brooklyn, no worries. It takes time to warm up to blogging. I completely understand.

    =)

    By Blogger Lex Fori, at 2:39 PM  

  • Dude, CECU has got to be startin a fire on his keyboard, he's typing so much. Where it at??

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:39 PM  

  • LOL...Hello Sadie. Just found this post!

    I was gardening all day yesterday, helping a dear friend who has fallen on hard times! Got home about 10pm, and went straight to bed.

    Heading back over there first thing this AM.

    Lex, Sadie, and all other, I will post on this, but, my gut reaction to this post is sadness.

    My fingers will burn up the keyboard later. (if I am not too tired!)

    By Blogger Crazy East Coast Uncle, at 5:00 AM  

  • Sadness? Do tell...

    This post was directed at a philosophical conversation, so I encourage all to feel free to say what they think. I must say, I anticipated more comments on this matter.

    "Respect for differing opinions, ya'll." That's what Britney Spears would want. Feel safe.

    ;)

    By Blogger Lex Fori, at 9:30 AM  

  • So, this is the long lost response that had to get deleted because of the boss walking in and looking over your shoulder at your blog!

    I knew this post was going to be coming soon after that comment so I was waiting. However, it came when I was in the middle of a large project helping someone! So, I am sorry for the delay in responding, but, here goes.

    As I commented on last week, Lex, I hear lots of dogma in your comments. You are correct that there is no rational way to believe in the existence of "something out there watching over us and determining our destiny." On this point we agree!

    You said you would trade in every remaining moment of your life to believe. And you seemed dismayed that no one said they would pray for you, and you felt that you weren't part of the club. I responded that it is not the "club" that you want to belong to, but, the need to believe in "something!"

    Here lies the puzzle for you. What do you want to believe in?

    Atheism is not a belief system, but a way-of-life system. It is a fundamentally, and realistically sound way of life, and due to those traits, the only system that comes with a firmly entrenched winnable position in a debate! In debating belief systems there is never a winning position due to the fact that there is no proof!

    You state that this matters due to vanity. I agree. Vanity, due to always wanting to be correct. And from a atheist point of view, they can not be wrong in this debate, because you can not prove to them that there is anything other than what their senses can comprehend.

    Your comments about the neural networks of the brain only scratch the surface. There is so much activity in the brain that we don't understand. Yet, there is even more of the brain that doesn't do anything, yet, is part of the brain's activity. Your view, that when the energy leaves the brain, then the brain is dead. From a physical, and biological point of view you are correct. However, where did that energy go.

    Einstein left us with a very simple equation: E=MC(squared) Without getting into the theory of relativity, it explains energy and it's relationship to matter and light. This equation is also now being debated in regards to the matter, or anti-matter part of the equation.

    I won't say that I understand all of the intricacies of this particular debate about Einstein's theory, but, what I am getting at, is that your comments about the energy leaving the brain, leaves a lot to be questioned! In other words "having your T.V. turned off," doesn't apply in my view. Because the energy just went to the T.V. down the street, or the dishwasher, or the light pole. The energy is constant.

    Einstein's theory is beyond the scope of this debate, but, the concept of energy/electricity is topical. You see energy only as the final result of something much bigger. When you turn on a light, do you understand the positive and negative wiring, the grounding, the circuit box, the big box on the side of the house, where the wires from the electric pole attach, or the transformer, or the switching stations, or the power plants? For most people that would be a big NO! As long as the light goes on when the switch gets flipped, they are happy!

    This is a very simplified version of atheism.

    When we flip the switch and the light doesn't go on, oh, we have to change the bulb. But how do we understand blank outs, or brown outs, as we don't have any power! What really caused it? We don't know really! But an atheist can say, the lights are out, there is no energy, and they would be 100% correct. Yet, they would only be scratching the surface of the reality of the situation. Eventually, the lights would come back on, and they could say, "we have power." And, again, they would be 100% correct. As for a way-of-life system, this is a very strong debating position! You will win this battle every time.

    I mentioned that I was saddened yesterday, in my brief post! Here is why.

    You mentioned that you so wished to be able to believe. I don't take this in the dogmatic sense, I know you better than that. However, your comment about getting a direct sign from God or angels even would suffice, be it a tall order or not, is a typical atheist debating point.

    You said that I insinuated that atheism is a placeholder until a person asks themselves what life is, what it means and why we exist. Let's do away with the insinuation, and be clear, IT IS a placeholder for the spiritualy immature. However, I believe you are mixed up about what I have said in the past. I warn against the simplicity and historically steriotypical notions of RELIGION, not spiritually!

    When you say: "Atheist can and do ask themsleves these questions and toss about answers, answers that can simultaniously conform with their Atheism," isn't that rationalizing!? Isn't that making your way-of-life system conform to what you want it to be, rather than the truths that you find when asking these questions. Keep that up, and you can call it dogma! You will have started your own religion!

    Those question I posted were not for rationalization, or dogma creation, they are to find truths for whoever so chooses to tackle the puzzle of life! And each person who chooses to tackle the puzzle will come to their own separate individual truth! That is spiritual! Not religious!

    If I disappointed you with my comments, so be it, but, I do believe you had it slightly twisted, and I hope I set the record straight on that issue.

    Now to point out a few other things in your Diatribe:

    You mentioned: "I don't understand the notion that for life to be meaningful, it must be eternal. The things in life that are most meaningful come to an end: that first kiss, raising your children, a sunset beautiful enough to make you cry, a comet, an orgasm, a butterfly...life is full of amazing, meaningful things that have marked beginnings and endgins"

    First off, the eternity thing comes from dogma. Dogma comes from religion. Religions come from those who wish to control. Those wanting to be productive, like Pharohs, and kings, and emporers, want you to do good things, so you are not a pain in their side, and they don't want to kill you off because then productivity goes down! So, strike the dogma thing again!

    Second, you mention some things that seem to be from your personal experience. A first kiss. A first anything by definition has a beginning and an end, or there could never be a second kiss, or a bigger kiss, or a greater kiss, or just another kiss. Raising your children, I hope for you and me both, is a life long thing! I don't wish to see an end to that and I hope you don't either. A sunset beautiful enough to make you cry. If you have only seen one of these in your life, I feel sad for you. When the sun sets, it is still there, just going around the earth, to start a new the next day. Seeing that as an ending, to the daylight, yes, the day, no! The night may be long, but I know the sun will come out tomorrow! A comet. This is good, but, scientifically, we know the comet is coming back. It is on an elliptical orbit around our sun. Haley's comet takes approximately 76 years to make one orbit, but, Haley's comet is out there! It didn't end. An orgasm. Honey, if you only had one orgasm in your life, I am sorry BF, but, you need to do better than that! A butterfly. I find this last item very interesting. I wonder what the caterpillar thought!

    What I am trying to say, is that in your examples of beginning and ending, you show nothing but continuations. From your perspective, you see a defined beginning and ending, whereas, I see continuation. I guess it is the cup, which is half-full, or half-empty. I just prefer to see the half-full cup, whereas your perspective, you are seeing the half-empty! Yet, again, it is a perfectly true perspective. You have choice, enjoy your choices.

    I find your biggest overall question, being, and I am paraphrasing here now, why do you wish to be eternal, or live forever? Like the song by Enya from Highlander, “Who wants to live forever?” You ask: "Why is it fundamentally 'better' to exist forever? I am not sure that I have an answer for you. I think that is something you have to find out for yourself. To me, I look at this question, again, from a different perspective: Why are we only human for a short period of "manmade" time? In other words, as spirit/energy I am stuck in the human existence. It is part of knowing!

    By the way, I like to thing that knowing comes after believing!

    From this perspective, your last questions thereafter, have no basis in reality to me. What is best for the universe, the future, why does that matter? From who's perspective? Selfishness, and desire to exist forever, doesn't come into play. I am not sure that question after that makes a lot of sense.

    To sum up, Atheism is not a belief system so much as it is a way of life, and I am perfectly fine with those who choose this path. However, since you described such a longing to be able to believe, and eventually, have “knowing”, I suggested that atheism is just a “placeholder” until you are ready to journey down the path toward some sort of spirituality, as yet undefined and only to be defined by you! I admit that atheism is a very strong debating position, but that is due to proofs from the senses, and beliefs have nothing to do with proofs. Make no mistake, from my view point, spirituality and religion are two completely different things that some day, I should do a post to explain the differences!

    What I find most interesting about this, unfortunately, is that this all started when you seemed to think, while staying in the hospital, about your own mortality! Almost as if, should that end of life moment come, is there something out there that could be eternal, that could keep “me” going. Now I won’t try to get inside of your head, but, there were some very loud questions about “what if” stated in those posts! Those “what if” questions, are basically the same questions I was getting at in my comments. It is not that you might find the answer, but that you asked the questions! Yes, they are philosophical questions, which each person must deal with in their own way. When I saw your comments yesterday, and, basically, how you responded to the questions, I was saddened. Defining everything with start and end, is so drastic, and yet, knowing you, and your sharp mind, I wonder why you take the easy way out!

    This is not something that can be really debated, but shared. As Lex said, it is philosophical. Please join the discussion.

    OK, I will let the keys cool off for a bit!

    By Blogger Crazy East Coast Uncle, at 9:24 AM  

  • A yes, well thought out responses. *Respect* Way better than some Nony posters, from, say, San Diego... could ever offer.

    What do I *want* to believe in? I want to believe in something meaningful. And the closest I have come to that is my take on Atheism as described in the original post. The contributing to evolution part. I think it's a bigger deal than you give it credit for. But, as I said, I'm vain, I'm selfish, I'd like to be alive forever, but when I think about it - I don't think that eternal existence is what is best for an ever evolving universe.

    You're absolutely right - the hospital ordeal directly centered on facing mortality. Being so young, death scares me. I don't like the idea of leaving behind a 10 year old who can't hug me, of never seeing another sunset. I hope that by the time I die, I feel ready. I don't feel like I have learned enough yet, like I have had enough influence yet, like I have come close enough to being *good* yet. I'm not ready to die, and when one is sick for a year and a half, one starts to think they might be dying. So, not being ready to die, one hopes for a way around it. My reaction to getting no response in the chapel-yearbook was more of a dispointment in those who follow traditional religion. The idea that someone would go around praying for stragers to get better, and to be willing to note that, yet not be willing to note a prayer to help someone believe - I think that demonstrates (what I think you would agree with) is a fundamental problem with most religions. They label outsiders and judge them. For a group whose whole life revolves around facing ultimate judgment and hoping for a passing grade - they sure do issue an awful lot of failing grades to others. It's just disapointing. Traditional religion is still the majority, and it's disapointing to experience a judgmental, holier than thou majority. I wouldn't have such a problem with religion if it were exercised to more to express love and less to express a sense of elitism.

    I agree that the brain has way more power than anyone knows. That's the old "we only use X% of our brain" tenet. But that doesn't get around the fact that brain injuries change people - and I think that fact helps demonstrate the fundamental truth that the self exists only through a biologically living body. I also agree that 1) I don't understand the intricacies of Einstein's theory (who does) and 2) that energy must go somewhere upon death. I agree - those electrons and protons and all that other stuff we learned about in Biology 101 must go somewhere. But if it isn't flowing through a network of neural pathways that exist only physically in the brain, then the memories contained in those patterns must also disapear. Like I said, I agree that the energy must go somewhere - but I believe that, if it doesn't just attach into it's surroundings, it "disperses" -- but I Do Not see how that can possibly take with it the information that exists only in brain patterns.

    Now, I read through it twice, but I don't think your response gets to my key question for you. How do you beileve that the self (i.e.: sense of identity, personality, memories) - survives brain death? I can handle the Dispersement of the Energy Theory - but I don't see how the maintenance of self can possibly occur.

    And again with ther simplifying... Cheese and Rice. Atheism is for the spiritually immature? That's as bad as if I said that believing in an afterlife is for the logically incapable or that the lottery is a tax for people at math (ok, that last one is true). Atheism IS a belief system, not just a way of life system. If I conceived of Atheism as only a way-of-life system, I wouldn't have thrown in the whole bit about the purpose being something that goes on longer than an individual life.

    The idea is that you recognize that there is something bigger than yourself (the entire universe in its ever-evolving state) and do everything you can to contribute to that and guide it in a positive direction. One's contributions to the universe's evolution are something to be taken very seriously. And the serious Atheist doesn't believe that their impact ends upon death.

    When I said that the meaningful things have a beginning and end - I mean a beginning and end for the perceiver. The comet is the best example of this - it may come around only once during my lifetime. But I am going to remember sitting in the backyard as a very young child, watching Haley's Comet fly over the backyard of Aunt San Diego for the rest of my life. It is an isolated experience for me, and it retains meaning despite the fact that I will never see it again. It exists somewhere, but it is not in my perception path, so for me, indvidually, it is not a continuous experience. As for sunsets and orgasms - yes, you can experience them time and time (and time and time, trust me BF is *handling* it) again, but the point is that each individual episoed is isolated in time. Nevertheless, it is meaningful,

    As for raising your children, you are absolutely right. That goes on your whole life, I'm going to concede this point to you. But it's also a good example of how an Atheist's beliefs go beyond a person's life. Daughter will continue to be influenced by me well after I am gone, and she in turn will pass what she has taken from me (hopefully improved upon by her), onto others. It's an ongoing cycle. I just don't see that the one person continues to be consciouss of it after brain death. I don't see these things as being half-empty glasses. It's just that they are glasses that don't physically exist forever. The impact of the glass will be passed on through the ages.

    It seems that there are different standards being applied to logic for Atheism versus logic for your belief system. And I still don't think you've completely verbalized what that belief system is... You insinuate that it means one retains identity after death, but I don't see how that takes shape for you and how the self exists. I might not ultimately agree to it, but I'd like to hear about it and think on it than be left to guess what it is. I offer to let you guest-post it here if you'd like, just email it to me and I'll post it. Or, we can keep it in comments. Whatevers clever.

    Ok - my turn to let the keys cool down a bit.

    By Blogger Lex Fori, at 11:54 AM  

  • And, word up - let's hear from some of you others out there. I know you've got opinions. Contribute - dag nabbit!!

    We promise we'll be nice and respectful.

    By Blogger Lex Fori, at 11:55 AM  

  • There are some things that I think need to be clarified:

    The physical brain, and consciouness are two completely different things.

    Within consciousness are two areas: consciousness, and subconsciousness.

    References to God that have dogma from any particular religion, represent the image of the dogma god to which one refers. I refer to God in the Absolute! Not he, or she, or savior, or Shiva or Buddha, Allah, Kali, Zeus, or any of the other mythical gods that we are familiar with today.

    Belief systems deal with beliefs that can not be proven through the five senses.

    A way-of-life system (my definition, since I believe I coined the phrase earlier, and wish to clarify) deals with everyday decisions. Some decisions are made for the short term, others for the long term, but ultimately, all decisions, have a basic defined purpose behind it. Example: (and I am not trying to pick on you Lex,)vegitarians, fall under my definition of way-of-life systems.

    The basic definition from the street of an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God. If I am wrong, or you wish to redefine this, please do, as I am not an atheist, and am trying not to label something or someone that I am not.

    ______________________________

    Now then....If you are an atheist, who doesn't believe in god, due to the lact of logic of the religious dogma, you have not really tried to explore spirituality. More likely, with your intelligence, the "Mary with the Cherry" story, and the "if God had his only son killed for me, what kind of a father could that be, and why would I want to follow him" made no logical sense to you. Without any other dogmas to explain themselves, the anti-God theory or atheism becomes popular to the intellectual crowd. Which is another way of saying, religion is stupid and I am not falling for the bullshit! This part, I agree with you 100%!

    However, there is more to spirituality and all I am saying is, try it. Give it a chance. Reopen your mind on this issue, and explore it.

    When you mention that the purpose of Atheism is something that goes on longer than the individual life, please clarify this statement. Personally, this is confusing, in that corporations purpose is to go on longer than lifetimes, and the same with the Jewish Faith, the Quran, and the Catholic Church. I am hearing dogma here, and I would like it clarified, if you wish.

    What I find interesting, is that in the next sentence, you state: "The idea is that you recognize that there is something bigger than yourself (the entire universe in its ever-evolving state) and do everthing you can to contribute to that and guide it in a positive direction." I think by stating "you recognize that there is something bigger than yourself...," you are admitting a belief in a higher power, an Absolute! Therefore, this can not be atheism! Your words!

    Your desire to believe in a higher power betrays your words. These are the words of someone searching, but not finding! I understand this search. I tried most of the major religions during my late teens and early 20s. I agree that they all have some wacky "logic." So what did I find?

    The truth that you come to understand is your own! Not what some preacher wants to tell you.

    I know I keep referring to electricity, but, it is a great example. In my last post I showed how most people just use it, without ever really understanding it. That is how life was for me before I understood metaphysics, and I won't profess to knowing it completely just as I don't electricity completely.

    Lex, you have already started to wander in that direction, when you talk about the brain, about what happens when the brain, and physical body dies. However, I challenge you to show me in any antomy course, where is the mind? Where is the consciousness?

    You ask: "How do you believe that the self ... - survives brain death? I can handle the Dispersement of the Energy Theory -
    but I don't see how the maintenance of self can possibly occur." To which I say, the self is part of consciousness, part of the mind, part of the energy. The brain is the physical element utilized by the mind to do all that it does. Remember we supposedly don't use X% of the brain, this says nothing of the mind.

    You are really wondering what happens to the mind, the consciouness, upon death of the brain? Let's just say the brain will become fertilizer, but the mind, consciousness, energy continues. Example: you are online each day, using the electronic impulses of the internet to post to your blog, when you "turn off" your computer, your blog is still "alive" through the energy of the internet! Your mind is what you communicate on the blog through the internet, and your brain would be your physical computer.

    Perhaps not the best example, but, what I am trying to say is that upon death, and here is where the belief sytem comes in, as opposed to a way of life system, I believe/know that my consciousness continues.

    _____

    As for my own beliefs, I will post that at a later time as this post is already very long! But I am willing :)

    BTW...Happy Father's Day to BF, and all of the other DADs out there today :)

    By Blogger Crazy East Coast Uncle, at 3:27 PM  

  • God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him, "Lord, we don't need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing. In other words, we can now do what you did in the 'beginning'."

    "Oh, is that so? Tell me how.." replies God.

    "Well," says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of You, and breathe life into it, thus creating man."

    "Well, that's interesting, show Me."

    So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

    "Oh no, no, no..." interrupts God,

    "Get your own dirt."

    By Blogger Crazy East Coast Uncle, at 6:33 PM  

  • Ah CECU, again you take me out of context.... *sigh*...

    First, I disagree with your fundamental premise, that the brain and the conscious are two different things. I think I laid out my reasoning for that pretty clearly. Again, I don't see the two being separate because of the way a person's memories are tied to biology. This has been proven. True, we don't know what the brain would do if it worked at 100% cappacity. But you are using the possibility to prove the fact and that is not logically sound. I think that even if the brain did work at 100% cappacity, it would still be the brain, and would still stop working once energy stopped flowing through it. So you still lose the "identity" that is tied to brain biology. You just do it a helluva lot smarter.

    I also disagree that Atheism is just a way of life system, and further disagree that only the first user gets to define the term. Life versus belief system is common language, and I think that you can't say "well, I said Atheism was a life system, and I used the term first, so therefore it is what I say it is." Simplified - it's not that simple.

    You miss the fundamental point of my feelings that a person is 1) part of something larger than any one thing while at the same time 2) incapable of experiencing that larger thing while retaining a sense of identity after death. When I spoke of things going on and contributing to the future - I speak of contributions made during this life that in turn are passed on to other beings that continue to exert an impact after you have died (brain death). This is how a person contributed to an evolving universe while simultaneously not having the ability to perceive eternity. There is no conflict. You disagree so you call it a conflict. But really, you're just disagreeing with my logic. That's not the same thing as proving it wrong.

    You live this life as a conscious being. You interact with other beings (conscious and those who have not achieved consciousness). You exert an influence on those things (people, in your relationships with them; dirt, in the pressure you place upon it). We impact things all the time in this life, and the impact continues after we are gone. I have to go back to the example with Daughter. I teach her to be a loving, considerate person - and she becomes a loving, considerate person. That quality lives through her in her life, and in the ways she in turn impacts others with it. This is what I mean by contributing to evolution. In my view of Atheism, you are contributing to the future, all while knowing you will not be there to experience your impact. That's the selflessness of Atheism, you're giving to something knowing that you, personally, won't be there to see the ultimate impact of your life (in the sense that *you* will retain identity and know it)

    Much like your computer example. Lets say I am a computer, the only coputer capable of entering my blog and putting in posts. If I die, poof - the blog creates no new posts. But what was done while my computer was on does still exist for others to read on their working computers. The computer, and my ability to make new posts, no longer has the ability to log in and create new posts - but that doesn't mean the impact of what I wrote is gone as well. But I, the individual computer, am not permitted to access the posts, to create new posts, or to read new things that are posted on the internet after I am gone. The internet is the universe, larger than any one computer. But once the user is gone - so is the user's ability to personally experience what is on the internet.

    You are missing the central theme of my "belief" system - that consciousness ends when a person experiences brain death. I don't get the difference between consciousness and subconsciousness - one is something we are aware of and the other is something we are not aware of. They are both still patterns of energy running through neural networks. They've done studies on this. People with brain injuries, much like in 50 First Dates, that can't form new memories - maintain subconscious memories. They know this because they still improve at procedural tasks (brain puzzles, like the Tower of Hanoi). But when they are hooked up to monitors that read brain waves, brain waves are flowing in patterns even when a person is experiencing a subconscious activity. So, for me, the difference between consciouss and subconscious does not conflict with my theory.

    Before the dialogue can evolve much more, I think I need to have the competing theory for comarison's sake. We are spinning circles and repeating ourselves without convincing eachother of much of anything (other than traditional religion is stupid). I understand that you believe there is something more that cannot be proven/experienced with the senses that are tied to this body. But if we can't feel it during this life - why would we be able to feel this life when we are part of the something more? (whatever that is)

    It would really help me understand where you were coming from better if you explained where you are at. Under your belief system, how does a person maintain identity? Is it something you just *know* to be true, but aren't quite sure how it works? Is it a matter of faith or do you have a theory on the mechanism of identity retention? And, back to one of my original questions - why is identity retention fundamentally better?

    Again, open inviation to guest blog. I've always wanted to have someone guest-blog. That would be cool and make it look like I have friends =)

    More importantly, I wish other readers would offer their thoughts on this topic. Going back and forth between just CECU and I is a lot like arguing politics with grandma at Thanksgiving (CECU knows exactly what I mean on that one ;)

    By Blogger Lex Fori, at 4:10 PM  

  • I agree with you about everything coming to an end when one dies on a logical level. Still, the sentimental part of me would like to think part of us lives on after death. It all comes down to a deep fear of knowing that someday, I'll close my eyes and it will be dark forever. Death is an intimidating, frightening inevitability - so frightening that humans created a complex mythological structure to cope with the ulitmate mystery. The idea of death is too much for a lot of us to handle, so the idea of an "afterlife" is one huge security blanket. I think this is why those who believe in a religion or a deity are so threatened by those of us who don't believe. It's as though we've come to grips with our own mortality and they can't handle that knowledge yet.

    By Blogger TEM, at 8:30 PM  

  • Living on merely within what you've passed on to others would be great if it wasn't for the fact that the sun will go supernova one day...even if we escape Earth before then, eventually the universe will grow cold and lifeless.
    When you awaken to where you really are, I believe (4/10/06) that those of us who are as passionate and intelligent as Lex will be able to sigh Love.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:58 PM  

  • Excellent point, Eldritch. We all fear being gone and forgotten so much we forget to enjoy each day we get on this Earth. We should all be thankful for what we've got rather than grasping for more of what we think we want.

    Hey Lex, I just gave you a major shout out on my blog - asking others to read your amazing post (did I ever tell you that you are one of my heroes) and post their comments.

    This is one of the best, most thought provoking posts I've read on any blog. Ever. Excellent work.

    By Blogger TEM, at 1:16 PM  

  • TEM, I aspire to a carpe diem policy as well, although not for the same reasons. I'm afraid you've missed the point. Read my comments in Lex's post of 4/10/06 for clarification.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:01 PM  

  • Lex, I have stayed quiet this week on purpose.

    I was hoping that more thoughts would be shared this week on this topic, and I am thankful for those that did, but, it is still not the response that I believe we were both hoping to see posted here.

    Anyway, I will tell you that I have researched atheism more than I had really had time for this week. I found that there are as many different types of atheism as there are christian sects. Where there are sects in christianity, there are just differences in atheism. So, I guess whatever you wish to define as atheism goes.

    The one basic belief that does run through the various writings and websites that I explored this week, was the non-belief in a god. Everything else is what you make of it.

    I find that you have many "fundamental" differences with me. I was starting to wonder if that might be your new favorite word in attempting to redefine my arguements.

    I find it interesting that you don't know the difference between he conscious and subconscious. Wasn't your major in undergrad school, Psychology?

    I also find it interesting that you don't find a difference between the physical brain and the conscious mind.

    These two ideas I would love to see more talk upon.

    This is my final post for this comment section. I am more than willing to comment further on another topic like this one :)

    By Blogger Crazy East Coast Uncle, at 9:40 AM  

  • I think you misinterpreted what I said - I do see a difference between the conscious and subconscious. But I also find a similarity in that they both die after brain death. As for what I see as the fundamental relationship between the brain and conscious, well, I think I've explained that ad naseum.

    I would love to see more on this topic too.

    In response to Eldrich's comment that my theory is all well and good until the sun goes supernova - that's a good point. While I think it is more likely that we will ruin ourselves and our planet first with things like global warming - or even an unfortunate meteor. I'm hopeful that before either of those events happen, we will have figured out how to habitate other planets. Surely, there are some out there that can house us. Stephen Hawking says we should be well on our way to colonies on Mars. While it would be sad, if the planet exploded tomorrow, there would be no influence left and in my "evolution" theory of forever, that would suck. That point is conceded. As I said, I just hope that before that time comes, the human influence will have found a way to solidify itself without Earth.

    By Blogger Lex Fori, at 1:38 PM  

  • But that doesn't change the first part of my second paragraph. Even if we escaped earth, the universe will one day be unable to support life. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Atheism for the infinity within it. Yet I beleive in an infinity without it also. Again, this existence is a something which, instead of implying one thing, implies all things.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:57 AM  

  • "I mean the second part of my first paragraph." "So much time and so little to do, strike that, reverse it, this way please."

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:02 AM  

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